I do not need to get angry on a nice Friday morning before a fun-filled 3-day weekend. I really don’t. But goddamn if the blogosphere isn’t making it very difficult for me.
Here’s a thought. If you don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about, how’s about sticking a cork in the verbal diarrhea.
Aside from the general assiness of that Pandagon post - featuring the usual short-sighted, recycled “but but it’s oppressive ’cause of the patriarchy and that’s the ONLY possible way to construe it because Teh Menz rule everything and yeah it sucks but we can never subvert and bless your heart…!!1!1″ - one might think that the irony of the post being written by a man might not be lost on said writer. However, apparently one would be wrong.
Note to potential obnoxious commenters: if you want to come around here and have that same old argument about, “but but but… it IS oppressive!” - well, instead of wasting your time and mine, please fuck right off.
Happier blog post coming later. There is much to be happy about!
ETA: Oh gawd. JackGoff linked to me in the comments on that post. Argh… Well, thanks, Jack, for trying to show a different perspective to that myopic lot. Seriously. But now, I’m going to end up having to read that entire comment thread, aren’t I? The stoop1d, it burrrrrnnnnsss… (and add a pinch or two of male privilege, for extra seasoning).
READ ME: Disclaimer
58 Responses to "People are stupid, version 3,465,746,676"
so yeah, I had to comment and all…
Ren,
You’re either braver than I, or have more of a masochistic streak than I do.
*sigh*
I read it all behind a lexan window. Much safer that way.
Um, isn’t Auguste, you know, a dude?
whatever. ‘k thanks for sharing bye.
By the way, I found a place that teaches pole dancing (among other things) in the city, thinking about signing up. God knows I need the exercise, and it sounds hella fun. Trouble is, it ain’t cheap–like double to four times the usual cost of a single class (wrt jazz, modern, etc. etc., the usual studio sorts of classes, which I also want to get back into).
Yep, exactly. I found that particularly amusing.
Awesome that you found pole dancing classes… sucks that it’s so expensive. The 8-week classes at the studio where I go are $199. (Although the current class, which is an “in between” class to get us up to speed for Level 4, was discounted.)
I wonder why it’s so much more expensive at your place than other dance classes? Weird.
But good luck when/if you end up taking classes!
I’ll be getting a pole installed in the apartment soon. :D
I’m quite tired of the “but is it feminist” conversation by now. You like pole dancing, great write about it, which btw I love your posts on it, it’s sexy. However, if you don’t like it, fine write about it, chances are I just don’t care.
I with Ren, there are more important things to talk about with regard to “feminist issues”. I’m all for feminists talking about sexuality, because that is a large piece of oppression but the whole “porn is theory, rape is practice” seems so short-sighted.
And having conversations about whether or not pole-dancing is feminist or not, reminds me of the conversations in the 50’s of whether Tupperware parties were feminist acts of defience. The obvious answer is they could be, or they could not be.
My brand of feminism fully supports me exerting my sexuality any damn way I choose, why is that questioned?
Yeah. And I don’t want my agreement on Ren’s site that there are more important things to talk about to make it look like I think talking about sexuality, or self-expression, or personal empowerment is not important. What I think is unimportant, stupid, and useless is making pronouncements about what is and isn’t a “feminist act.” Just cry me a fucking river already.
Oh and can I also just say… I am so sick of the “use your brains, not your body!” bullshit. Ya know… telling women to be ashamed of our bodies, and that only sluts ‘give it away’ or whatever the hell else, and if you aren’t ashamed of your body then obviously you have self-esteem issues… NO. JUST STOP. Because THAT is patriarchy too. Huge, ugly, nasty, PERVASIVE patriarchy.
Why does it have to be one or the other?
[...] from comments… I shall quote myself. [...]
I just feel like we have plenty of shit to worry about without trying to make women feel bad about how they want to dress, or dance, or look, or have sex, or express/enjoy their sexuality in any way. True feminism to me is all women having the freedom to be whoever the fuck they want and do whatever the fuck they want, without anyone else telling them that they can’t make a particular personal choice. That the justification for telling them they shouldn’t make that choice is that it’s bad for them as a woman, or bad for women as a whole, or not very feminist, doesn’t make it any more justifiable.
I replied as follows — I will post it here because I’m not sure it will escape moderation:
“And this view of sexuality - that men are allowed to get horny, then act on it, while women have to act on “it†regardless of their actual feelings - is what leads to the kind of sex-negativity we see from the right.â€
Huh? Pole dancing parties do not espouse men being allowed to act on anything without a consenting partner. Or women HAVING to act on ANYTHING. And as for blaming this trend for “the kind of sex-negativity we see from the right� I don’t think so. The right needs to own its feelings about sex without blaming Janet Jackson or pole dancing.
“If you’ll forgive my assumption of heteronormativity*, how is it possible that pole dancing with a group of women is empowering sexuality?â€
It’s not necessarily an “empowering†activity in itself, as Ren said above, but if an individual woman finds it empowering, why not believe that she can be a rational actor or thinker? You seem to believe a woman cannot feel sexy and/or cannot play with her sexual boundaries unless men are around. Well, I’ve felt that way dressing up alone or goofing off with friends. I, and I don’t think any woman, needs a man to tell her what’s empowering of sexuality, or needs him around to sign off on it.
And getting real honest here — in my admittedly not exhaustive, but admittedly fairly extensive, experience with hetero men — I think there are basically two varieties of straight guys. Ones who find women in lingerie pole-dancing somewhat sexy, and ones who find women in lingerie pole-dancing extremely sexy.
The men in either group with average and above IQ can understand that the women doing the pole dancing can feel this way about themselves while doing it. So I suspect that there are not many intelligent men who can, without being disingenous, accurately claim to not get how it could be empowering on an individual level, or at least a lot of fun. And the reason, if I may be so bold as to hazard a guess, that a man would claim a superior kind of disgust for this activity, is to ingratiate himself with women who feel this way.
Short version of above: there are a few, but not many, things that piss me off more than a guy trying to kiss up to certain women by dissing others. And if you remove all the feminist-speak and oh-so-correct fake liberal openmindedness, that’s all that’s going on here.
Digby has a great post about political commentary being turned into gossip columns. I do believe it is relevant to feminism as well. It’s one thing to talk about beauty images in media, women’s health, sexuality, reproductive justice, racial justice, oppression, domestic violence, human trafficking, rape and sexual violence, career, exploitation, glass ceilings, poverty, education, relationships and whatever else I missed.
I see nothing wrong if you want to follow pop culture, or turn relatively trivial concepts into theory, but I have to say I get why some feminists are asking “why are we talking about clavicles”? I see nothing wrong with following trends in the media and commenting on them, but asking the “to be, or not to be” question is just contributing to “gossipy”. I have a feeling that if it was Amanda who wrote the article, it would have been a more “shut the fuck up, it’s neither”.
Look, I think it’s important for women like you, Ren, Belle and yes even myself to speak about our sexualities and bodies the way we do and to encourage other young women to engage with us. I think that it is important to say that feminism is not going to tell you what you have to look like, except well some are.
and what octogalore said.
If you’ll forgive my assumption of heteronormativity*
Who said that? In any case: not forgiven, piss off.
No, seriously, Whoever: you -know- what “assuming” does, riiiiight?
Hedonistic actually had some comments on why belly dancing in an all-women setting felt good to her, as a straight woman.
but getting back to that question,
I mean–among other assumptions
1) that straight women will never, ever, find each other sexually appealing, or enjoy exhibiting themselves to other women, not even a little tiny bit; straight is straight and gay is gay (and maybe bi is bi, but) ne’er the twain shall meet
2) that if you’re gonna be dancing and expressing your sexuality, if there’s no one to “gaze” at you, well–what’s the point?
3) that “sexy” is one-note; it certainly couldn’t also be empowering or feel good to y’know use your body, show off your strength and grace and flexibility, get the endorphins flowing, in a supportive atmosphere
4) and most of all, the big Kahuna:
-that there’s nothing to be gained by being in an all-female environment all by itself-. from a FEMINIST perspective.
It’s a group activity. It’s something to share. Without worrying about frigging MENMENMEN for -once- (for fuck’s sake, has anyone else noticed how some feminists can’t seem to have -any- discussion about women without dragging MENMENMEN into it, even if it’s only to complain about the patriarchalness of it all?) It’s seeing other women use their body–imperfect, flawed–in a way that may or may not be sexual, but—enjoying- themselves, -not- beating up on themselves or competing, and thinking: -I can do that, too.-
What -isn’t- feminist about that?
And you know, I -live in- my body; -that- is the point of whatever-you-want-to-call it, the whole -point- is that I’m neither an agency-less screen for others’ projections nor a disembodied, floating head.
I am a person.
That includes, but is not limited to (that should really fucking go without saying, -shouldn’t it?) my own -fucking- sexuality, so step. OFF.
Sorry, Amber. :-(
“And you know, I -live in- my body; -that- is the point of whatever-you-want-to-call it, the whole -point- is that I’m neither an agency-less screen for others’ projections nor a disembodied, floating head.”
I may be mistaken, but isn’t that the basic foundation for all human justice? I mean whether it is feminism, sexuality, race, ablism, or classism?
I love men, and especially men who are allies, however they do tend to get mentioned a little too often in our movement. I get change is not going to happen without them, I don’t care how much anyone wants it to. Personally, I don’t, I have a nephew and brothers, and possibly a son someday… I want feminism to work for them.
However, I do get why men who are allies sometimes just don’t get it. Instead of having honest conversations with themselves about what it means to them to go to a strip club, watch porn, or what they find sexy and how that matches their conscience… in trying to be a friend they ask whether or not it is feminist…. adding to the gossipy style of feminism and superfiscial “pats on the back”.
yaknow, I find gardening empowering…growing things to eat, pretty flowers…getting dirt on my face and knees…and my husband sez I’m sexiest like that, because I’m happy. Does that mean my green beans and tomatoes are Patriarchy? Do I have to give up gardening, or just the enjoyment of it?
A couple of things:
Belledame, if you haven’t read my post, why are you so pissed off about it? As far as my “assumption of heteronormativity”, I was using “assuming” in the sense of “for the purposes of this post.” That’s why I linked to another post which was a bit more inclusive, so that I wouldn’t be guilty of hiding the fact that there are other ways to look at it.
And, as I stated in comments, the post wasn’t an attempt to tell women how they should empower themselves; since I’m a dude, that’d be idiotic even if I thought that way, which I don’t.
Actually, I quite purposefully avoided ruminating on the sexual orientation of the participants, again the reason for linking out to a post which did.
Damn. That’s not stated, or even implied. But why, as a commenter noted, is it necessary to express your sexuality by imitating a culture which is defined by the gaze in the first place? The article (about pole parties) that I was commenting on certainly didn’t show the partiers or the party organizers engaging in any deep thinking about “reclamation.”
Again, as I stated in the original post, I’m all in favor of that (and even if I weren’t, it’s not my business.) But, again, why this particular form of dance? Why a form of dance which was developed specifically to indulge the male gaze? Is it because of advanced feminist reclamation? Or is it because, as you say, everything has to be related back to the MEN.
Amber, if you enjoy pole dancing, by all means. I certainly didn’t mean to attack any individual women. I do, however, as I was at least implying in the post, believe that the purveyors of pole parties as a mass market, “hot trend” event, are trading NOT on empowerment but on the restriction of sexuality into a male-defined box.
octogalore,
I re-read your comment that you reprinted here, and you are right on one count:
Writing that sentence in that way was a mistake. Clearly it came out of my head, so I need to watch my sexism, but it wasn’t what I meant in the sense of the overall post.
Auguste, you’re digging your hole deeper and deeper. And continuing to prove that you don’t know what you’re talking about.
Where to start? I have a limited amount of time, so we’ll start w/ this:
Totally. Fucking. Clueless.
Look, I am loathe to repeat myself over and over, because I’ve explained my experience (not attempting to speak for anyone else) many, many times.
The studio where I take pole dancing? Run by women. For women only. No men are allowed, at any time. It is the most supportive, positive, judgment-free women-only space I have EVER been in. The focus is on individual women honoring and appreciating their bodies, expressing themselves however they choose, feeling comfortable w/ their unique sensuality, getting in shape (because that shit is HARD), building their confidence, and being SUPPORTIVE of all the other women in the class.
And yes, for many women who I take pole dancing with, part of it does have to do w/ sexuality. But it’s not JUST about sexuality or sex appeal. (Note: I do not mean that sentence to sound like I think there is anything wrong with something being about “just” sexuality. I really hate the notion that if it’s “just” sex then it’s base, or crass, or whatever the hell else.)
Being sexy for Teh Menz? Not a factor in why any of the women I’ve talked to decided to take the class.
How often are Teh Menz mentioned at all in class or when we’re hanging out before and after class? Rarely.
I did a podcast interview w/ two of the studio owners, back in October. You can listen to it if you’d like.
But you know… I’ve come to realize that with this, there are some people who are going to hear me, and some people who just won’t. Because they refuse.
Oh and also Auguste, don’t even try with that “I wasn’t insulting individual women…” It’s old, and tired. Do you really think I’m that dumb? “I was making fun of something that’s one of the most important activities in your life at the moment, chastising the notion than a woman could find it empowering or feminist, erasing the voices that say otherwise… but, hey, I wasn’t talking about INDIVIDUAL women!”
Right. Like I’d fall for that. It’s beyond insulting.
Well, hell, most salons I’ve gone to where we pretty ourselves up for men are run by women, but I’d hardly call spending two hours getting your hair and nails done to fit a feminine ideal “feminist”. It’s fun, you’re not a bad person, I do it, but it is what it is, playing to the patriarchal standards.
Actually, one clarification…
One time they had a fashion show, and men were allowed. However, each man had to be accompanied by a woman attending or participating in the show.
…except when that’s not what it is.
I’m sick of the “do it, but don’t feel empowered by it!” / “do it, but don’t fool yourself!” trope. I get enough guilt from, well, everywhere else.
But you know, Amanda, you and I might just have to agree to disagree. I think that might be what it comes down to, bc I don’t know how many more times or ways I can try to spell this out.
*shrug*
Oh and also Auguste, don’t even try with that “I wasn’t insulting individual women…†It’s old, and tired. Do you really think I’m that dumb? “I was making fun of something that’s one of the most important activities in your life at the moment, chastising the notion than a woman could find it empowering or feminist, erasing the voices that say otherwise… but, hey, I wasn’t talking about INDIVIDUAL women!â€
Erasing the voices that say otherwise? Really? Is that the same way you’re erasing the voices that are even harsher on pole dancing than I am, such as the feminist professor quoted in the original article? Is she erasing your voice?
As I said in comments, and *intended* to not ignore in the original post, I am not qualified to decide what’s empowering for you. I do, however, feel that I’m qualified to have an opinion on sex in our society. If you disagree with my opinion, then I respect that disagreement. But I still have the right to say it, and in my opinion, the right to say it without being accused of erasing voices.
No, I take that last sentence back. I don’t have the right not to be accused of anything. I do have the right to be offended at the accusation, though, just as you have the right to be offended by my opinions.
Feel empowered by it all you want. I feel empowerful when I pull some sexual power on men. Just don’t mix it up with the real power men have.
Okay Auguste. We all have the right to say what we want, to not be erased. None of us have the right not to be offended.
What’s next?
Anyway, look, I’m asking that you might CONSIDER some other interpretations before making a bunch of generalizations.
Because, contrary to what you might think? It’s NOT always about Teh Menz.
It’s just not.
Sometimes, for example, it’s about me.
Honestly, I find it kind of disheartening that women have so few ways of bonding outside of preparing to be sex objects for men (in salons, etc.) that the trend of pole-dancing makes me sad. If we could get non-male-sexuality-centered ways to bond, I’d like that.
Amanda, I don’t think that follows. We’re talking about two different kinds of power.
Oh and you think pole dancing is male-centered, I see. You STILL do… even after…
- oh fuck it. Seriously, I am DONE trying to explain myself to people who refuse to hear me.
Anyway, look, I’m asking that you might CONSIDER some other interpretations before making a bunch of generalizations.
Because, contrary to what you might think? It’s NOT always about Teh Menz.
It’s just not.
Sometimes, for example, it’s about me.
Actually, that’s the thing. My concern is that for many of the women mentioned in the article, it is. Which is why I say I’m not going after individual women - because for those for whom it’s not all about the menz, my post doesn’t really apply.
As for whether I considered any other interpretations - of course I did. As I said, if there weren’t other interpretations, I wouldn’t have anything to be counterarguing. But I was also taking into account OTHER other interpretations, the ones that say that objectification is ALWAYS wrong, and that’s a position I disagree with as well. Heck, if I was going to offend anyone, I figured it’d be them - because what I’m hoping for, eventually, is a society where it’s SO MUCH not about the menz that we’re not even able to have this argument.
My concern is that for many of the women mentioned in the article, it is.
And, by the way, that concern is not borne out of “I know better than the wimminfolk” but rather the personal stories of women who see it that way.
I want to be very careful to not give the idea that I’m trying to decide for anyone. Maybe that’s how it comes off. Maybe I’m using my unconscious privilege, which I certainly know happens, even to me*!
* Snark.
Personally, I think there is something very radical taking place if one is able to take the imitation of an oppressive power structure and use it for self-empowerment. Understandably, imitations, to outsiders, still seem to duplicate and replicate those structures. But shifts in subjective appropriation change the way the structures operate for oppression. I believe this is a point made often in queer theoretical circles, something of how calling one’s self ‘queer’ defeats the use of the word as harmful, hurtful epithet.
The problem is what was mentioned before: it appears to outsiders that all we have is replication of oppression, but now this time with false consciousness. What we have are two versions of liberal values competing with one another. Namely, the viewpoint that tries to seek a public position of committed antagonism to oppression and the other that tries to seek a private position of overcoming antagonism through redirection.
It kinda makes it ironic for someone to accuse pole dancers of succumbing to the oppressive effects of the gaze, when what they want is precisely to create a public position and stance that reveals its resistance and opposition to oppression. It must be visible and public resistance, not internal and private subversion.
Amber, please correct me if I am wrong, but it seems to me your point has been, for a very long time, that just because a man can make something a woman does or is into an avenue for his oppressive sexuality does not automatically mean the woman cannot, herself, assert her sexuality through that very thing. I don’t see why that is immature or naive, but I get the impression that is how Amber’s position is regarded.
Oh, for fuck sake, people.
Any action you take is not inherently patriarchal. It is your INTENT that illuminates your action.
Happily, I am perfectly capable of getting a haircut because I FEEL like getting my hair cut. I can come out feeling good because I’ve done something nice for myself and I like the outcome. I don’t give a fuck what anyone else thinks. It’s not about other people’s expectations, it’s what I want. Just like Amber is perfectly capable of pole dancing because she FEELS like pole dancing. See, we don’t need your approval.
But some of you are OH so clearly not interested in hearing that.
The fact that someone is incapable of going to a salon without feeling like they’re playing into society’s expectations is an indicator (a rather ridiculously large indicator) of their own issues much more so than anything cultural.
I quote sassywho: My brand of feminism fully supports me exerting my sexuality any damn way I choose, why is that questioned?
And Amber, I’m really fucking proud of you for having the courage to take pole dancing classes. Clearly, not everyone has that.
I get the concerns about an implied “beauty and/or sex” standard, and I do find our current “pop culture” definition of it tiring and tedious.
I do not believe that it would be outrageous to assume that many of these women have had body images issues for as long as they can remember because of that standard. By the time most women reach high school they could not imagine walking through the locker room naked. A woman walking naked in a room full of other women is not necessarily a sexual performance (although others may disagree), but it is a performance nonetheless, one that communicates an awareness and confidence in her body.
Traditionally men are better public speakers because they own their physical space, women on the other hand have to earn and psychologically work for it. Being in front of others takes confidence and an awareness. Performing on stage, whether speaking, acting, dancing, or pole-dancing is exhilarating and if you do it well, you’ve owned your body and presence, and in many ways awakened the senses that are conducive to sexual energy.
I have a hard time seeing what is wrong with women, sharing a few bottles of wine and shedding some inhibitions among friends, and probably in a space even more freeing than the swimming pool. (I suggest looking at some of Amber’s pictures from the women in her class, beautiful, confident women)
Media buzz words like “stripper-chic” are ways of shaming women, both the women dancing in classes with other women and those who do it for a living. Adding a neutralizing word to it is because the other one is sexually charged, and society doesn’t want to think of their “good girls” that way. This is why “ghetto-chic” parties are offensive. So yeah, if I have a beef, it’s that.
Am I inclined to call pole-dancing a feminist act? No, but I don’t think it contradicts feminism either.
A few quick things…
And so, it might be a good idea for “outsiders” to LISTEN. Because they might LEARN.
And, Charles, you’re pretty much right wrt summarizing my point. I’d like to write a separate post on that specific topic later, though.
Agreed. And just a quick clarification (not that it really matters, but I’m detail-oriented like that) - in my pole dancing classes we don’t get naked.
As to body image issues - one thing that pole dancing has done for ME is to help me OVERCOME some deep-seated body images, ones that have been around since I was, oh, 12 or 13 years old. Other women in my class(es) have expressed a similar sentiment.
Re: “stripper chic” - I don’t like phrases like that, because they are dismissive and condescending, and demonstrate a serious lack of listening and understanding. Not because there is anything wrong w/ being a stripper. It’s more the “chic” part that makes it so reductive and annoying.
Also, sassywho, I have to admit, I do bristle when I read things like this:
It’s like, why do you have to go to the trouble of saying you’re not inclined to call it a feminist act?
I know you didn’t mean anything by it. But that tends to be my general reaction when I see anyone say it.
And frankly I’m tired and BORED with the endless debates over what is and isn’t a “feminist act.” Jesus.
Finally - Jenny, I just love you. :)
I need to call you. We need to TALK. Shit, I need to VISIT you.
I’ll end this comment now before I get too carried away w/ the all caps.
You know, if one wants to name some other ways in which women can bond, one is welcome to do so.
I’m really not sure what part of my “IT ISN’T ABOUT THE FUCKING MEN, I DON’T -CARE- ABOUT THE GODDAM MEN” didn’t really make that clear, but: you want to bond, nu, bond.
Paying attention to what other women actually are saying is usually a decent start.
Also? I often find myself wishing that men would take some of that concern and instead go, like, drum sweatily in the woods together or something.
SRSLY.
Oh, christ, I’m not! More, more please! Listening to straight men and conventional straight women natter endlessly about what does and doesn’t walk that fine line is RIVETING. So glad we have endless time for -this-, you know; I will keep it in mind when certain people talk more about what they do and don’t have -time- for.
It’s a fucking pole. People dance on it. If it wasn’t that, it’d be some goddam thing else. Lap dancing. High heels. Lap dancing -in- high heels. Blowjobs. Giving blowjobs to high heels–oh, wait, no, not that, that’s marginally different.
OR, taking the pole, and finding -some other use for it.-
Yes. -That-.
It isn’t. Next?
–you know, you keep using that phrase, “the gaze.” I do not think it means what you think it means. It was originally coined to talk about FILM. It doesn’t apply to society as a whole, rilly.
and, um, Auguste? In what way does the post you footnoted not center heteronormativity? Or even differ substantially from what you’re on about?
“Why can’t women take control of their own sexuality.” Because -every goddam time we try,- ESPECIALLY those of us who do NOT fit your norm–yes! you are the norm! you are influencing peoples’ anxiety about their sexuality! at least as much as the pole party people! really! there’s someone coming along to explain why it isn’t -good- enough, or why we need to fucking -examine- it, and BY THE WAY, you want to know why I’m so pissed off, ring! ring! clue phone! for you!
It -isn’t- just that post. It’s EVERYWHERE.
That’s kind of, you know, the point?
“Honestly, I find it kind of disheartening that women have so few ways of bonding outside of preparing to be sex objects for men (in salons, etc.) that the trend of pole-dancing makes me sad. If we could get non-male-sexuality-centered ways to bond, I’d like that.”
Gosh, I did not know that “women have so few ways of bonding outside of” apparently being pole sluts! Hmm, I have a women’s book group, I work out with women friends, I do business networking with a women’s group, and also hang out with some cool women online. I guess if I did pole dancing, though, it would just cancel all these other things out, rather than being ONE OF MANY VARIETIES OF WAYS to bond with female friends.
Or possibly, doing something with women that involves having fun with sexuality MUST MEAN we are “preparing to be sex objects for men” rather than having fun with something that we enjoy for ourselves. Oh yes, it’s refreshing to be told by another woman what ones motivation must be. We don’t get that enough from teh menz.
But I guess possibly the most important lesson we shameless harlots can take from this wise counsel is that bonding around having fun with sexuality is just WRONG. Because sexuality is slutty and let’s face it, there’s no way women are really ENJOYING it, it’s all an act for MEN. It will kill our (already limited, since we have not apparently found any other ways to bond — oops, I mentioned a few, oh well) brain cells.
So thanks, let’s get the word out, gals. We owe it to other women not to make them feel disheartened at our sexbottery. We must check the feminist handbook before embarking on any potentially disheartening bonding activities.
“Also? I often find myself wishing that men would take some of that concern and instead go, like, drum sweatily in the woods together or something.”
Belle, must say, you’re in especially fine form on this thread.
I am with you on the intense love for the concern that straight men have about these slutty activities.
I mean, you just know that there’s all kinds of fun disingenuous stuff going on here, like that (1) they know they could be whipped into a lather if they had a front row seat; (2) they probably don’t (have one, that is); (3) if they were offered one, they’d take it in a red hot second over any of the points they’re winning from the “conventional” feminists you mention for decrying this activity; (4) they’re very well aware of (3) and (5) they can’t really believe that this stuff is not, necessarily, all about catering to them.
So those are a few of my reasons to find this “concern” amusing, at best, and … well, I won’t get into at worst.
ffs.
“empowerful” is not a goddamn word.
please fucking quit with the making up words to describe what sex-positive feminists want, think, need, or do.
it’s getting goddamn fucking O. L. D.
stick your “empowerful” up your ass and bother someone who gives a flying fuck what you have to say.
oh and amber:
i am so here for you on this one.
not that you need it, you’re righteous on your own. :) but should you need me, I’m totally here to tear these shits to bits for ya. :)
funny just how MANY OF THEM have peens, innit?
Thanks. I’ve elaborated a little at my own spot.
“If we could get non-male-sexuality-centered ways to bond”
(biting tongue desperately)
Well–
no, no, no, so not going there.
Amber, I understand why that makes you bristle. I use that language because so much of what women do seems to be thrown into 2 seperate bins “feminist” or “patriarichal puppet”. I have no problem with concepts and dissent within feminism, yet so often our language and concepts are co-opted by the media, spun and delivered into televisions and magazines everywhere as the next big “women are out of control”. No, the media is out of control.
I look at pole-parties, or even worse stripping(I knew that you wear clothes) on the same level of choice. Neither are necessarily made as feminist choices, women are still being forced to abort against their wishes or with coercion. The anti-choice side recognizes this and uses our concepts about improving women’s lives and health and Leslie Unruh gets on national tv to wax on about how much feminists want abortion on demand. Meanwhile, all they are doing is trying to legislate that choice away instead of focusing on prevention. There are women who could not have an abortion, and I support that those women should never be forced to do so. On the other hand there are women who could only do it under certain circumstances, and I am supportive of that as well. Then there are women like me who are godless heathens are unappologetically pro-abortion and see nothing wrong with it at all. The choice is the feminist act.
There are women who enjoy sex work, and there are women who choose it because that is the quickest/best action at the time. Yes, there are women who are in it not by full choice, or not even a choice at all. Instead of sticking our fingers in our ears and saying “but we love women, and no woman could possibly want to do that… now, now follow me little bo peep”, we could actually talk to sex workers and ask them what will improve their lives. Meanwhile society could have a productive conversation about why so many men are patrons and often the most vocal opponents. Again, knowing what is right for you and making that choice is feminist.
Instead of allowing our media another opportunity to confirm our collective madonna/whore complex we could talk about why whenever the 2 blend everyone gets a little uncomfortable.
Imagine if a group organized a transportation system for rural women who had to travel for hours for abortions. And these women set up a comfortable lounge on a bus and for efficiency picked up as many women as possible to take to a clinic. Of course since most states have a 24-hour wait period, they would arrange for overnight accomidations too. Media would be on fire with “Abortion Tours” and the anti-choicers would be giddy.
Just like “anchor baby” and whatever they were calling that get out of college baby.
Stop indulging the media and the right, start from the platform of choice and work out from there. Stop worrying about the college educated women wasting their degrees by choosing to stay home, or the young college educated woman who chooses sex work, instead let’s focus a little more on the women don’t have that choice.
That doesn’t mean that there aren’t meta feminist conversations to be had about our beauty standards, why the workplace is still hostile, or why women have been “talked back into the home”, or how men exploit women. However, I don’t think sending the collective message of “have more respect for yourself” is the way to go about it. Don’t you think we’ve told enough drunk co-ed’s, instead of the assholes who exploit that?
jeebus, i should have just posted at my place. sorry amber, you know i get long winded about choice.
>But, again, why this particular form of dance? >
Gee, I don’t know. For me, it’s gonna be, because it’ll get me to work my upper body, and because I like the idea of climbing and spinning around a pole, just like I -didn’t- do much of in grade school because I was too much of a klutz. And because I’ve taken umpteen other forms of dance, and this one sounds like -fun.- Too.
Perhaps you’re right, though, and I should stick to my classes in less patriarchal forms of dance, like–ballet.
Oh for fuck sake. Amber, bide while I rack up some more asshole points…
What is something in this society that equals power? Money.
Pole dancing, lap dancing, what the fuck ever? It CAN really pay.
What else can equal power over in this society? Sex appeal.
Get it? Good. Done now.
and while we are at it talking about cultural aspects that shape womens sexuality, I motion that all Disney movies be banned and destroyed.
and that is not in satire.
hee. when i went to get my nails done for the first time last month, it was to be sure i looked middle class enough. it never occured to me that men would give a rat’s ass about my nails.
if you file ‘em to -really- sharp points, you can REALLY put a stop to the Male Gaze!
…I think “empowerful” is the new “P.C.”
Wait, now. Was there actually Tupperware conversation in the 50’s?
I was wondering that myself…
Here here on the STFU with the verbal diarrhea!
[...] on to the question of why it matters. When I first read Amber’s response to Auguste re: pole dancing, I skimmed through the comments and thought, “why does anyone have to prove to someone else [...]
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