From Wendy McElroy, via Ren:
Degrading is a subjective term. I find commercials in which women become orgasmic over soapsuds to be tremendously degrading. The bottom line is that every woman has the right to define what is degrading and liberating for herself.
The assumed degradation is often linked to the “objectification” of women: that is, porn converts them into sexual objects. What does this mean? If taken literally, it means nothing because objects don’t have sexuality; only beings do. But to say that porn portrays women as “sexual beings” makes for poor rhetoric. Usually, the term sex objects means showing women as body parts, reducing them to physical objects. What is wrong with this? Women are as much their bodies as they are their minds or souls. No one gets upset if you present women as “brains” or as spiritual beings. If I concentrated on a woman’s sense of humor to the exclusion of her other characteristics, is this degrading? Why is it degrading to focus on her sexuality?
<hint type=”passive-aggressive”> McElroy’s book XXX: A Woman’s Right to Pornography has been on my Amazon wish list for a while now. </hint>
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9 Responses to "Quote of the day"
I (heart) McElroy.
Wow, that is pretty good point she has! I’ll have to remember this when it comes up in conversation, or just buy the book and hand it to people who toss this old anti-porn argument my way. Growing up with only sisters and my mom, plus mostly girls as friends, I like to think I’m well aware of how to treat a woman with respect and now have learned that my porn doesn’t have to stand in the way of that!
Yes, it’s a good point. But, Brian, you should be careful of not going too far in the other direction and acting like there’s not any nastiness associated with porn. Misogynistic porn exists. But (to my mind anyway) the more pressing issue is the labor concerns surrounding porn - e.g., making sure performers have a safe work environment with freedom to negotiate a fair contract without compromising things such as their preference for condom use, etc.
Sorry if it sounds condescending, but I say it because I’ve seen far too many men - many of whom identify as feminist or pro-feminist - spout just such a line. Men who are feminists or sympathetic to feminist ideals have a responsibility to always monitor themselves for that sort of thing, and to remember, no matter what, to listen to women when we speak about our own experiences.
Just a general-purpose FYI.
Oh, I do agree with you on that and certainly try to monitor myself in thought and action. I realized as soon as I posted that comment how it might be read, that suddenly anything I see in porn is A-OK, which isn’t true. I don’t support porn which I see as mysogonistic, degrading or making me unconfortable. I never wanted to be “that” kind of guy. But then I often feel as a straight, white male that I really can’t speak up about porn or erotic material because it can be misconstrued in so many ways.
I read a lot about porn, mostly through women such as yourself, Tristan Taormino, Susie Bright, Audacia Ray and Violet Blue, and I know that much of what is produced is pretty awful. I don’t support porn that features choking, slapping or gagging because of these reasons and yet what confuses me is when some women have admitted to genuinely enjoying the rough stuff in their porn. But as a guy, it’s confusing, since if I also admitted to liking the same then I am immediately painted as the worst kind of mysogonist.
In the past 5-6 years, I have really made a concerted effort to read and listen to the female perspective on the subject, wanting to fully understand the various perspectives on it in order to be an informed man who does derive pleasure from some porn. I read reviews and even submitted my own online. I never want to make a woman feel uncomfortable and yet when the topic has come up in conversations with female friends and I want to share some of the insights gathered from a female pro-porn audience, I am sure it looks like I am simply being the predictable guy who must defend porn. Arggh! :( Maybe as a man, I don’t really have much of a voice except for what I choose to view or not to view. Help me Amber! :)
Don’t feel bad, Brian, if you are a woman who does enjoy that shit you will be painted as the worst kind of mysoginist too. Trust me, I speak from experience.
I want to clarify something.
I wrote my comment late last night when I was tired and about to fall into bed, and on re-read, the “misogynistic porn exists” line is ambiguous at best.
I agree w/ McElroy that every woman should be free to decide for herself what is degrading or liberating (or just “eh”) for her. I do not think that any sexual act is inherently degrading, liberating, or anything else. I don’t think choking, slapping, or gagging is necessarily misogynistic. (I like the first two of those in my own sex life, from time to time!) I don’t think that just because porn includes those things it should automatically be labeled misogynistic. Dacia has written about this before but I can’t find the post right now, but she was saying that to her, the most important thing is the conditions on the set, how the performers are treated, etc., rather than the specific acts portrayed. And I agree w/ that.
What I was trying (poorly) to say above is that sure, some porn is made by people who have misogynistic attitudes. But since we’ll never successfully regulate people’s thoughts and feelings (short of punishing people for thoughtcrime) we should focus on tangible inequities and correcting them.
Also, one other thing in particular:
I know it’s easy to do, but you are generalizing here. I have experienced the same shit Ren has, only she has experienced it about 1,000 degrees more. It’s not fun, and it sucks when it comes from other self-identified feminists. But do understand that not all feminists subscribe to this line of thinking. I do not think it’s okay to police other people’s sex lives as long as everyone is a consenting adult.
Ah, Amber, if only EVERYONE could be so reasonable! Ack, there I go, being all oppresive again! I guess I put on the pants with the misogyny in them on this morning!
LOL!!!
And, sorry for being unclear in my first comment. I should really not write stuff when I’m exhausted, but I will never learn!
If it’s one thing I hate, it’s generalizations - especially when it originates with me! :) It always bugs me when I hear other people generalize concerning politics, religion and gender and I try to keep it to a minimum in my own day to day life. Thanks for the insightful replies and I do love your blog!
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