I don’t have time for much of anything other than work today, but I do want to post something real quick in response to a discussion at Ren’s place. Over there, I said:
Octo,
As I said before, I agree w/ a lot of what you are saying re: the gendered tilt to “sex week” being problematic. In fact, we agree on much more than we disagree on here, so I don’t want it to seem like I’m nit-picking. But this did irritate me a little:And “age is just a number” notwithstanding, college girls and guys aren’t that savvy about longer term issues.
Now I realize I have this thing where I personalize everything. I’m not sure how to stop doing that, or even if I *should* stop - but what it boils down to is, when I see a general statement made that doesn’t apply to me, a little red flag goes up, because that means the general statement isn’t so general. And sure, I could be an outlier, and there is value in speaking in generalities if they apply to a large majority - I certainly understand that. And yet, that statement rankles. When I was in college, I absolutely was savvy about longer-term issues, and I was very annoyed and insulted by people assuming I wasn’t, simply because of my age or because I was in college.
I really like and respect Octogalore and so I didn’t snap at her or anything. I want to understand where she’s coming from. But it might end up being a fundamental difference in perspective, and I do take umbrage at the suggestion of college girls being “impressionable” and, basically, infantilized.
This is something that always bugged the shit out of me in college, the way some people insisted on treating college students like high school students in slightly bigger bodies. (I saw more of this at UGA than at NYU, but I have no doubt it happens to a degree at every college.) I was always like, goddammit, college students are adults! We are over 18. Hence, ADULTS. So fucking treat us like adults!! If you continually treat college students as NOT adults, what good does that do? It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. And yeah, some people come from sheltered backgrounds. But you know what? They’ve gotta grow up and learn how to deal in the real world at some point. So quit with the coddling, because it’s fucking offensive!
I may have even blogged this sentiment when I was in college, because I’ve had my blog that long.
As for this Yale Sex Week business, hey, Gail Dines, did you even bother to look at the schedule? The “Who Looks Most Like a Vivid Girl” contest contest is one part of a full week of diverse programming. As in many situations, parts of the programming might not be nearly as “progressive” as they are marketed to be. Color me skeptical. And yeah, if I were at Yale, that contest would likely stick in my craw. But as far as the actual women involved, it all boils back down to a pretty simple concept for me. I don’t have to like or endorse or sing the praises of every woman’s choice. DUH. But see the thing is, other women don’t NEED my approval to do whatever it is they want to do, and vice versa.
READ ME: Disclaimer
22 Responses to "Quick brain dump"
Hell. I’m 27 and have been practicing law for 2.5 years and I still get, “Oh honey, when you get out your 20s, you’ll think differently.” STFU!
Amber — as you said on Ren’s blog, I think there are more similarities than differences in our perspective, and I did clarify fairly clearly where I was coming from. I have no problem with college students being respected and treated as adults. I have no problem with young adults experiementing sexually to the extent they are comfortable. I do have a problem with porno contests on college campuses sponsored by the college, yes. Putting in young college women’s faces the idea of a “desirable” body is problematic.
And while porn is a legitimate career, college isn’t the right place for that kind of career fair. Were the Vivid presentation, or any other porn-oriented presentation shown during Yale’s “Sex Week” equally focused on men’s and women’s bodies and men’s and women’s careers in porn, I’d have a different perspective.
Finally, let’s face it. Liberal “every woman’s choice is sacrosanct” stuff aside, the face Vivid puts on the sex industry is one thing and the reality is another. Marketing something this complicated on a college campus is frankly inappropriate. I have no problem with consenting, knowledgeable adults choosing this industry. I did, briefly. But I knew pretty well how to avoid the underbelly, and I don’t know that I would have made similar choices at 18, despite my being one of the precocious “I’m an adult, don’t treat me like a kid!” set. In our zealous efforts to treat young adults as independent, let’s be realistic about the realities and about the role of a university.
As the chic who just spent a week with 8 guys ranging from 20-26 and was occasionally referred to as “mama Jennifer,” (I’m 27), I can speak from rather personal experience at the moment…
It’s not age, it’s experience.
I had people pissing and moaning over the fact that these guys were behaving “like babies” because we were asking a group of students to behave like professionals and most of them didn’t understand appropriate professional etiquette. Overall, they did really well, but there were times where I wanted to scream grow the fuck up!!! But it wasn’t necessarily immaturity or age - some of them were far more mature than I will ever be. They just lacked the experience to know how to respond in an appropriate way.
I know that I’m much better equipped to make smarter, more reasonable decisions in certain situations today than I was two years ago. It doesn’t have anything to do with age, it’s just that I’ve lived through certain things, fucked them up and have learned from it. And if we don’t live our lives that way - if we don’t learn from our mistakes and come out able to make better decisions because of it…well, we’re doing something wrong.
So…I’m going with - in most ways age is just a number but, hopefully, not all.
Totally agree. And that’s why the concept of trying to protect or shield young adults from certain experiences, opportunities, etc. bothers me so much. How can anyone ever learn and grow if they don’t experience different things?
Sorry this comment is so short. Been away from my computer all day (and hunkered down working yesterday), and have to get ready for the Strippers Ball tonight!
Amber — I agree in theory. In practice, there’s a time and a place. Why not do stripper day at the local high school! Why not give a blow job elective at Harvard! Hell, nothing wrong with a well-done BJ, good harmless fun, why not let them learn and grow by experiencing that! No need to worry if it’s not equal opportunity, that’s life, let them experience that! It’s a legitimate skill, right?
Maybe I need to hand in my good liberal card, but there’s a difference between shielding someone from experiences and putting those experiences in their faces. Those who want to find them, it isn’t that hard to do that.
Eh, that sounds like a “slippery slope” logical fallacy.
I saw Gail Dines speak in college. Did not love her.
There’s a reason they call ‘em slippery.
They let the CIA, FBI, NSA, Secret Service, Law Enforcement & Military recruit and such in colleges. Those careers may require you to KILL OTHER HUMAN BEINGS. They are also somewhat sexist.
Oh noes, we can send 18 year olds to Iraq, yet gods forbid Vivid sponsers a pornarific beauty pagent!
You know what, I take this shit personally. I was naked on a pole to GET through college. I sure as hell don’t look like a Vivid girl, and this ain’t “Think of the impressionable children” here. These are LEgal Adults attendin YALE ffs.
GAH!
If the recruiting done by governmental and military organizations is gender-based, then I have an issue with that as well. Some of the careers you’ve mentioned are lifetime ones. As to the others, I feel they should not recruit on campus but on outside sites, with information on campus about where the events are happening. And same with Vivid. Those interested will respond.
To repeat myself once more — I have no problem with college women inspired to do so going into stripping etc. I do have a problem with a college putting its stamp on a certain kind of gender-based marketing. If anyone can respond to that particular issue, please do so, but hearing that I’m supposedly for quashing anyone’s desire to strip at 18 is getting a little old.
I’ve defended this right all over the web and I’d appreciate some recognition of the fact that there’s a particular nuance at play here that isn’t about denying sex workers their right to do sex work. There’s no reason for anyone to take this shit personally unless they’re a college dean at a university who’s inviting Vivid, and its contest on campus. If you’re not, then this isn’t about you. I spent some time on a pole too, and as I’ve said earlier, I would have entered the Vivid contest.
Octo: You know as well as I do that government security, law enforcement, and the military are sexist industries. How many female generals/admirals are there? 2 I think? Has there ever been a CIA or FBI chief director that was a woman? No. I don’t think there’s ever even been dept. chiefs that are female. Hell, the cops, fire dept. and military recruit right out of high school. I was REQUIRED in highschool to take the ASVAB, at which point upon scoring in the 98% the US Navy was all over me, until they SAW the 5′2″, 85 pound female that went with the score.
And the Dean of Yale didn’t organize this event, it’s student driven. Which may mean, yeah, sure, female students are participating in their own opression or whatever, but they oviously thought this sexist pagent was okay and a good idea for their event. And the truth is, there is a TON of porn already made on college campuses, stuff that is far more shady than anything that Vivid has ever done…Hell, thats how Joe Francis got his start. There are web sites totally dedicated to College Party Porn.
Point is, porn IS sexist…and it WILL be until as many women spend money on it a drive the market in the same manner that men do. Shrug. I’d be far more happy if I had a kid entering a Vivid Girl contest than signing up to grab a gun and go to Iraq. She could win the contest, grin, and never decide to do porn. Iraq? Hell, she’s signed her name, its a done deal.
And I can’t help but pick up the feeling, and maybe its just me and I am being over senseative and shit, that there is this feeling that porn is such a horrible career choice. No, no one perofrms in porn forever…but a hell of a lot of women move from in front of the camera to behind it. Vivid contract girls command top dollar, and well…. I’m no one famous, I’m no Vivid gal, I’m 36…and I still make decent money doing it.
I mean, I have to ask….are you against modelling agencies, the music industry, Hollywood, so on, recruiting talent or doing talent searches on college campuses? “Discovering” the next supermodel or pop idol in such places? They do so. And such industries are also sexist…after all, there are PLENTY of ugly male rock musicians and very few ugly female ones. Look at American Idol ffs…girls who aren’t “conventionally attractive” even if they can sing don’t usually make it far. Also, when we discuss college women…
The majority of them are NOT 18. College freshmen are often 18. The rest of them? Often range between 19-25. College juniors and seniors? Usually over 21.
Also, if porn is EVER going to be seen as a “real job”, if the women in it are ever not going to be shamed senseless, well then, it needs to be treated like a “real job”. Headhunters from EVERY other industry are allowed on college campuses to recruit. If porn is a “real job”…well then…
And there’s a reason they call ‘em logical fallacies.
Amber: per wiki and other sources, “The slippery slope can be valid or fallacious.” You can guess which one I think applies here.
Well my thing is, I didn’t see it as being sponsored by the college. Yale Sex Week was organized by students. I’m not sure in what way you mean it’s sponsored by the college, unless you just mean that simply by having it on the campus it’s endorsed by Yale.
Which sounds an awful lot like some of the arguments used by people opposed to the Sex Workers’ Art Show coming to the College of William and Mary (link possibly NSFW, depending on your workplace.
Of course the military is sexist and as I said above, I’d prefer they recruit elsewhere, with notice on college campuses as to where people can go. As with Vivid.
The event is student driven but college sponsored. And not every female student wants the idea of a desirable physique in their faces nor should the college encourage this. Whether or not porn is made by consenting adults on campuses really isn’t my concern.
Introducing the military and whether we want our kids to sign up is besides the point. Something being preferable doesn’t make it desirable.
I have said over and over again that I believe porn is a legit career choice for those who feel it’s the right one. I don’t think it’s best introduced to teens by colleges. Again, Vivid can certainly advertise in venues that 18-21 year olds can see and respond to.
I would also prefer that colleges not feature modeling agencies or American Idol. No problem with either, but again: there’s a time and a place.
Also, I don’t think it’s necessary to treat all jobs the same in all contexts to demonstrate that they are all “real jobs.
And this sounds an awful lot like arguments against Gay Pride Week that I heard when I was in college - “I don’t want it shoved in my face!”
(Sorry for the short responses; I am somewhat sore and half-awake after last night.)
Funny, Octo, but I don’t quite see anyone get so exercised when traditional cosmetic companies which fund many universities impose their notions of “desirable physiques”.
But, I guess, that this is different because it’s all about SEX….especially the kind of sex that “serious” college-educated women should NOT supposedly be having when they should be busy earning their degrees…or something to that matter.
It’s not the great debate; it’s just a freakin’ student-led festival. No one is shoving it in anyone’s faces, and if you are so opposed to it, you are certainly free not to attend. If the college can fund military recruiting on campus and right-wing groups can speak on campus with impunity, then I don’t think that “Sex Week” will do that much harm to the women of Yale.
Anthony
It’s somewhat of concern when people who are online allies cannot disagree without tossing out red herrings like homophobia (completely disjointed argument as to how that applies) or sex negativity. The only response those frail rejoinders merit is that if you seriously think those are going to stick, this isn’t a good use of time for any of us. I’m not going to repeat myself about how it’s not the “in your face” it’s who’s doing the shoving, and about how I have zero problems with college women having any kind of sex they want. My day job requires too much handholding as it is.
Ultimately, it’s stopped being pleasurable for me to have this discussion here. The relevant points have been made on both sides and we should agree to disagree before it degenerates further. For various reasons, many whose views are similar to mine aren’t going to speak up, and it’s disappointing to me to see people I think of as friends getting so exercised about disagreement on an issue which nobody here should take personally.
Hmm. I thought we were having a pretty darn good conversation, respectable and all that. Octo I’m sorry if you feel differently. Can you email me and let me know why?
Anyway, I don’t think it’s exactly like homophobia, obviously, but I do think it’s a similar argument. They say analogy is the weakest form of debate, I know; but for me it tends to work well because it ties together concepts in my mind that might otherwise seem disparate. So that’s all I was trying to point out, that’s it’s a very similar argument and therefore sends up a red flag for me.
I’d be happy to email you. I enjoyed the discussion to date but I think we’ve made our respective points, and I’m starting to see counterarguments that are countering different arguments from the ones I’m making. I will shoot you an email shortly.
Not to prolong this conversation if other people aren’t comfortable any more, but my thinking is…isn’t a college campus the ideal place for this to happen since, by nature, it’s a place where people can discuss controversial and multifaceted issues?
I agree that some 18 year olds (and after my last week, some 20 year olds) are quite immature, but we have to recognize people as adults at some point and that’s our culturally accepted age.
Sorry to potentially push for more dialogue after the request to stop.
Leave a comment