Comments on: Another kind of double standard

By: octogalore

octogalore — Sun, 03 Aug 2008 02:25:02 +0000

Elizabeth — my mention of “narcissistic” was directed towards a male customer’s wish for a female stripper to be feeling mutual sexual pleasure, not the stripper’s desire for work satisfaction. I explained in the quoted section why I felt this was motivated more by ego than idealism. I totally stand by that word.

But keep in mind that the phrase I was responding to was â€œpersonal sexual gratification,” NOT “personal fulfillment.” I think some sex workers do get sexual satsifaction here and there, but it’s much more likely in porn than stripping (strip clubs were the context, I believe), for obvious reasons. Think about the age, fitness level, dance ability, practice at sensual skills, time and attention to grooming of the average stripper vs the average customer. These things matter, and why shouldn’t they? If they didn’t to the guys, they wouldn’t seek out such venues. So women aren’t allowed to have similar preferences? Let’s get real.

Regarding “personal fulfillment?” I found stripping VERY personally fulfilling. Sitting on some middle aged, balding overweight exec’s lap, I would lapse into reveries of WellsFargo.com. Sometimes I would let a little moan escape. Most likely the customer let out a sign of relief at my personal sexual gratification.

By: Amber

Amber — Fri, 01 Aug 2008 16:59:34 +0000

Elizabeth,
I don’t think we’re disagreeing. Notice in my comment I said:

I think that if a person can get a sense of personal fulfillment out of their work – if they are able to do something for a living that they see as their calling – thatâ€™s WONDERFUL! And you can definitely tell the people who truly love their work vs. those who are just doing the job; it shows.

So nowhere have I said we should not “make room for idealism” – simply that it’s unrealistic and unfair to expect idealism to be the measure of acceptibility.

Also I never said narcissistic. That was Octogalore’s word.

By: Elizabeth

Elizabeth — Fri, 01 Aug 2008 16:51:04 +0000

Yes, it is a fact of life in our culture that many folks don’t find their jobs fulfilling. But I’m not yet seeing how it’s narcissistic to make some room for idealism in sex work the same way many people make room for idealism in healthcare professions, teaching, emergency workers, counseling and many other professions. For many of us, nurturing that idealism is our advocacy in the world, and I see this argument as being on some level a misunderstanding between different kinds of advocacy. Some of us that you see committing this ‘narcissistic’ mistake may in fact be treating sex work the same way we treat many other professions, and holding the same hopes for the wellbeing of those in it.

By: Anthony Kennerson

Anthony Kennerson — Fri, 01 Aug 2008 15:25:59 +0000

I believe that I am compelled to respond to this, Amber, and, since it was me who made the observation that Octogalore was responding to.

My intentions were not to establish any form of “special standards” for sex workers, nor to elevate my position of “sexual progressive” above anyone else. It was simply to state my point that many sex workers can and do get some degree of personal fulfillment from the actual deeds other than just getting paid.

And maybe my ideas are way too utopian and completely divorced from the reality (or maybe I’m just thinking with the wrong head again; I’ve been know to do that on occasion); but I still feel that it is a lot more easier to perform the job if you literally enjoy it than if you absolutely hate going to work every day.

I do appreciated you and Octo and the rest giving me an educatiion in the reality, though. Even allies sometimes need a hit to the head to get back to reality.

Anthony

By: Amber

Amber — Fri, 01 Aug 2008 14:28:59 +0000

I think that if a person can get a sense of personal fulfillment out of their work – if they are able to do something for a living that they see as their calling – that’s WONDERFUL! And you can definitely tell the people who truly love their work vs. those who are just doing the job; it shows. But my point is that for most jobs, we DO understand that a lot of people ARE “just doing the job,” and that that’s okay. Most of us aren’t able to do something for a living that brings us personal fulfillment (but we can find that fulfillment elsewhere) and I don;t think that’s a great tragedy, j ust a fact of life in our system.

By: Elizabeth

Elizabeth — Fri, 01 Aug 2008 13:18:18 +0000

I’ve seen this first point she makes in various reflections and observations from sex workers, and it makes sense to me. And I do want to value it.

When it comes to the special set of standards for sex workers, though, I want to offer up a slightly different viewpoint. I worked in ordained ministry for several years (and trained in that culture for more years before that), and there is every expectation that the minister will be fulfilled by what she does for others. That drive/expectation is referred to as a ‘calling.’ There are many other professions that have some similar idea in them, an expectation held by both the professionals in that field and some people outside it.

Is that kind of personal fulfillment from the work necessary to getting the job done? It’s not necessary to performing the concrete skills of the job one is hired for; that much is clear when I survey my colleagues in ministry. Is it an appropriate ideal to hold? For ministers or for sex workers? I don’t know.