Private school and diversity in snark quotes
I’ve had a post perpetually in draft mode for several days now, about this, but at this point I just do not feel motivated. I’m over it. Here are a bunch of links to response posts:
- Octogalore
- Renee
- Aunt B
- AngryBlackBitch
- little light
- Blackamazon
- Lisa
- Moi, sort of, in a roundabout way
A big disclaimer goes here about how if I sound like any of the asshole white male “liberal” bloggers, just, good god, remember I’m not, and we all share a mutual loathing of them and their put-upon white man’s burden routine. Tiny violin, sad trombone.
All I will say is this. Yep, I called some of the WOC bloggers drama queens on Octo’s blog. No, I’m not naming names, because even though I agree w/ Aunt B, I also don’t really give a shit, because this is my blog and I’ll name names when I want and I won’t when I don’t want. If I were writing something that was trying to be more “formal” or was a public calling-out, yeah, I’d name names; but not in this case.
I just wonder what the hell they want – what would the solution be? There never seems to be a solution proposed. And then, oh, it’s not up to them to propose solutions, the white feminists expect them to do all the work… bullshit. I’m sick of it. And have I ever said they’re “just jealous?” Nope. However, I suspect some of them are jealous, but not “just” jealous, so it’s neither here nor there. And does them being drama queens mean they don’t have some legit critiques? Also nope. But it’s damn hard to get to through all the drama.
And once again I’m reminded how glad I am that I’m not using my blog as a way to try to make money or promote my career. I don’t need that kind of stress. And it means I don’t have to think about all the questions of representation and if people were to treat me the way they treated Courtney, I’d say kindly fuck off and be done with it. I love this post by Lauren at Feministe but I don’t think she should have to explain anything. See, most feminist blogs that are now “big blogs” started as just someone’s blog, and then they got attention, and then they grew, and it was very organic. I couldn’t believe how ignorant Mandy and Brittany appeared to be about the way the blogosphere works.
I had a note in the perpetually-in-draft-mode post about Pam Spaulding, a lesbian WOC, being one of the longest-standing and most well-known feminist bloggers. I don’t remember where I was going to go with that. Anyway: Pam is awesome. I met her briefly at ConvergeSouth 2006 and got all fan-girl about it.
Update, 2.24.09: THE DIVIDER LINE GOES HERE! OMG!!! —-> ~*~
What I am motivated to write about is… ME! Because I’m so selfish, you see? But here’s a few things I wanted to add after the last post about class consciousness.
After starting at private school, I encountered for the first time people whose mothers were stay at home moms, housewives, homemakers, whatever you want to call it. I was really surprised by this. I was like, “Oh; women still do that? Really?” Everyone I knew prior to that, their mothers had jobs. I honestly thought the woman staying at home while the man worked was a thing of the past.
Most of the kids at Augusta Prep had been to something called “social” when they were in 7th or 8th grade. I had never heard of it, but apparently it’s just what you do when you’re a kid from an upper-class family in Augusta. It was this whole other world I had no clue about. Apparently they teach you how to ballroom dance and other etiquette stuff. I still find the concept very weird.
I mentioned in the last post that my friend Kate, in Kansas, lived in a huge house. But the other thing about her house was, it was a total mess. They had a maid but I guess there was only so much the maid could do! (She seemed to concentrate mainly on things like laundry anyway.) And they had these incontinent dogs that would piss and shit all over the carpet. They had these absorbent sheets of paper laid on some areas of the carpet in case the dogs pissed there (of course, the dogs pissed anywhere but there). I thought it was disgusting. And I found myself feeling angry. Although I couldn’t articulate it, I was offended that someone who had such a big, nice house would treat it so poorly. It seemed to me like they were taking the place for granted, not appreciating what they had and how fortunate they were. Even though our house was comparably much smaller (though not tiny; it’s the same size as the house Rusty and I just bought, within 2 square feet!), it was always neat and clean. My childhood wasn’t perfect (not by a longshot), but my parents got some stuff right, and I was brought up to understand that you respect the place you call home and don’t trash it.
As for diversity. A criticism I’ve heard people spout about private school more times than I can count is that it doesn’t have enough diversity, and public school teaches kids about “the real world.” Fuck that. Now, I know there are plenty of private schools that really are just a bunch of super-rich white kids who have no clue how people outside their charmed circle live. And, maybe, there are public schools where kids from all different racial, economic, religious, etc. backgrounds mingle and learn from each other in “We Are The World”-esque harmony.
But I wish the people who talk about public school being so great would pull their heads out of their asses. I didn’t learn a damn thing in public school after elementary school (with the exception of Mrs. Cody’s class!). That “lowest common denominator” thing? It’s true. And Isabel, this is why Harrison Bergeron scares the shit about of me. Of course, even if I had been challenged and intellectually stimulated? I wouldn’t have had time to focus on it because I’d be too busy trying to avoid projectiles in the lunchroom or getting my head slammed into a locker door. Public school brings out the most anti-social, awful human tendencies, I’m convinced. Or at least mine did.
The reason I said I started to suspect that when people said “diversity” they meant “black people” was that my private school was very diverse, although we had comparably fewer black students than my public school. A major segment of Augusta’s Jewish population went to school there. There were also a lot of Indian students, some Muslim and some Hindu, students of other Asian descent, and students of Middle Eastern descent. There were exchange students from Germany, Lithuania, and Belarus. There were quite a few openly gay students – no small feat in Augusta! And yes, most (not all) of the students came from upper-class or upper-middle-class families; but so what? Overall I found them to be much more tolerant of differences than at public school. Or at least, if anyone did have a problem with anything, they never raised a stink about it or slammed your head into a locker. None of the gay kids ended up with broken noses (as happened to an openly gay student at my public high school).
Yes, there were your garden-variety white Christian kids; but there wasn’t one-tenth of the proselytizing that there had been at my public school. It was at public school that the health teacher showed us a video called “The Jesus Factor,” and Jenny and I marched to the principal’s office to complain about separation of church and state, knowing even before we got there that no one would give a shit. They had Meet You At The Pole at public school, not private school. There were the kids that met the stereotype – like the two rich white kids, a steady couple, who got drunk and drove an SUV onto the middle of a golf course and passed out – but they were seen as entertainment at best and caricatures at worst, and they didn’t work hard in school so they were kind of looked down on, rather than reified as they would’ve been at public school.
Interestingly, all the people who yammered about “diversity” in a way that made me suspect they meant “black people” were white – and so that concern fell particularly flat because if you know anything about Augusta, you know they have a lot of WEIRD issues with race.
To be fair re: the issue of being challenged in public school, I should say that according to Jenny, Niki, and Dipika, it did get better in 11th grade, when they were able to start taking AP classes. But that’s when I skipped out. For me, Evans High was much better hearing their amusing stories of their AP teachers from afar. And the school separation didn’t stop us from speaking Swahili in Niki’s jeep. :)
A big disclaimer goes here about how if I sound like any of the asshole white male “liberal” bloggers, just, good god, remember I’m not, and we all share a mutual loathing of them and their put-upon white man’s burden routine.
Here’s a new mantra for you: Disclaimers Don’t Make It Okay. If you sound like an asshole, it’s probably because you’re being an asshole.
All I will say is this. Yep, I called some of the WOC bloggers drama queens on Octo’s blog. No, I’m not naming names, because even though I agree w/ Aunt B, I also don’t really give a shit, because this is my blog and I’ll name names when I want and I won’t when I don’t want. If I were writing something that was trying to be more “formal” or was a public calling-out, yeah, I’d name names; but not in this case.
I just wonder what the hell they want – what would the solution be? There never seems to be a solution proposed. And then, oh, it’s not up to them to propose solutions, the white feminists expect them to do all the work… bullshit. I’m sick of it. And have I ever said they’re “just jealous?” Nope. However, I suspect some of them are jealous, but not “just” jealous, so it’s neither here nor there. And does them being drama queens mean they don’t have some legit critiques? Also nope. But it’s damn hard to get to through all the drama.
This is an amazingly bad way to start out your post and blurs everything that you say afterwards with the memory of your name-calling and the arrogant display of white privilege right up front.
I couldn’t honestly read your little essay about how diverse your private school was without hearing you calling all WOC bloggers (and believe it or not, that’s what you did) jealous, solution-bereft “drama queens.”
[...] last post got a trackback ping and I followed it to a post by Amber Rhea. Since she got my attention, I just had to go over there and read [...]
Dude! Didn’t you learn anything about boo sticks in geometry!?
Niki, you’re right. Boo sticks come in many different lengths and widths; before geometry, I did not know this. I stand corrected.
I did attend a private school (Baylor, in Chattanooga) for high school. I do value that experience. But, but, but…I think public education is really important for many reasons. It is crucial to our society’s structure. It educates everyone, not just those who can afford to or qualify to receive a certain level of education. And public schools can vary pretty extensively in what kind of environment they offer. In fact, the reason I went to private school is, more or less, that I was assigned to a horrible (very poor, violent, rural, verging on unaccredited) public school, but the neighboring and fantastic high school (with russian and japanese and a fully-articulated enrichment program and a nationally-competitive mock trial team) that I could also have attended happened to employ my mother. And one school would be too small for the both of us. But it’s not like there wasn’t a good public school option open to me.
I think that racial and economic diversity are very important. But I also think decorum is very important. And perhaps that’s where public schools in general fail — perhaps their unwillingness or inability to cast out students who are not only challenged but challenging to those around them is an area where we as a society should reexamine our philosophies.
I think public school is important too. That’s why I think we need to invest in it, instead of it always being an afterthought. It sucks because it’s not a priority in our country. I’m not saying vouchers are the answer or something like that… don’t get me started on the Libertarians and their “school choice” routine!
Hey there. You know what I think I’m gonna start putting in scare quotes? Your “working class background.” Not the working classes in general, y’see. Only yours. On account of: It’s bullshit. w00t! Freedom of speech in scare quoting!
Kristin:
Let’s see proof to back up your accusations, please? Because without proof, the only true bullshit is, well, your accusation.
Not to mention, as someone coming from a family with quite a lot of public educators, I really don’t appreciate your dismissive and superior attitude toward “the public schools” (as if they’re a monolith). Me, I grew up in the public schools, my family having been working class ‘n’ all. My experience was certainly not peachy either, but, funny… I always attributed that to the fact that young people can kind of be ssholes–rather than making generalizations about “those poor people and Blacks” I went to school with. Seems like the, uh, most logical conclusion here.
P.S. What does racism have to do with you personally? More specifically: Why would it follow to turn a discussion about racism and classism in the feminist blogosphere into a post about your experience with private school?
Oh good lord. Ok, look: Kristin? You must be new to my blog. I write from the hip here and sometimes I’m the only one who understands what I’m staying. But most people who have been reading for a while? They can figure out that me saying “public schools” meant THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS I ATTENDED. It’s too damn cumbersome to qualify every statement with “SOME public schools, I know they’re not ALL like that…” I don’t know about you but I’d find that tedious to read and ridiculous to write. If you’re looking for something to be personally offended by, I’m sure you can find it, though – as with any piece of writing.
The other thing people who read here with any regularity understand is, the topics in my posts are often NOT CONNECTED AT ALL. But, I failed to put in the little ~*~ dividers (a la Daisy) so OBVIOUSLY every paragraph must be interconnected on some larger theme.
But, I’ve already written too much. Anonymous blog commenters? I’ve learned by now not to waste my time engaging.
Ren: Well, from what I saw of the “I have a working class background” post, all I”m seeing is: “I have a working class background on account of the fact that people made fun of my Nascar shirts when I was a kid, and, while we had a house, it was not a *big* house like some of my friends had. Also, I didn’t have trust funds like my friends at NYU.” And the ensuing post’s failure to get it, like, at all when it comes to the class issues being raised in this discussion.
Sorry, but that just means “not rich” to me. That’s not the same as “working class”–and certainly not the same as “poor.” Not that I’m all that into policing class boundaries (or any other defining boundaries like this), but the self-identification seems particularly problematic and offensive in a post about how horrible and awful public schools–and how they breed “antisocial behavior.” Really fucking offensive. I bring it up because of the classist comments/posts therein.
I’m not anonymous…?
I’ll admit this all has me a little confused but that could be because I’m not really down with the lingo.
This IS bringing me some grim amusement (as Ren would say). Yes, you know my life soooo much better than me! Yes, the bits and pieces on my blog are the FULL STORY! Yes, some drive-by commenters knows WHAT IT ALL MEANS!
Uh, no, I only know what you posted.
In any case, *not* really one to police lingo either, but y’know… This being available on public domain and all, linking public schools with “antisocial behavior” does kind of make you sound like an asshole. Sorry, I didn’t think knowing an indiivdual’s private code was really necessary in order to “get” the average blog post. Guess you’re just… So brilliant that you’re beyond my ability to comprehend or something. You and your “complicated” ideas about race. Let me get back to reading that Derrida assignment then… This has been a waste of time.
Likewise, GriftDrift. I read Amber’s blog all the time, but I post on it pretty rarely because I have trouble boiling the bones of truth out of highly semantic discussions. Not that Amber’s thoughts are highly semantic, but the arguments she touches on that occur all over the place tend to strike me as moving targets which are partially defined by the perspective of the definers and there’s a lot of discussion about what counts and by whom and where the line is between one vaguely defined thing and another. And in general, being less involved in those discussions, I find it easiest to let those more invested make the arguments.
Class consciousness, in particular, is a very hard thing to nail down. And it’s very hard to relate to categories you are perceived as not belonging to without also being perceived as belittling the experience of actually belonging to that category. And of course this is all pretty vague and dependent on who’s perceiving and their motivations are. blah blah blah.
Also, thanks for clarifying your thought on public schools, Amber. I thought you were not making an argument for vouchers, but since it’s been so prevalent a consideration lately I feared that you were wrestling with related issues.
Oh, hell to the NO, Kristin…I respect you, but that was way out of line to slam Amber that way.
First off, there are plenty of folk of “working class background” who attend private schools for whatever reason, and not all of it having to do with hating on public schools. Not that I’m not a supporter of public schools on principle, but to make assumptions that people who send their kids to private schools are innately right-wing is simply foolish.
Secondly…who the hell are you to think that you can even question Amber’s creds as “working class” in the first place?? Actually, if you really want to play that game to its extreme, I, who make around $20 grand a year, can call YOU an elitist just the same. But, since I happen to respect the fact that whatever she makes in income, Amber , like me and like you, actually WORKS for a living, I don’t feel the need to mock her simply because she might make a bit more than I do.
If you are that interested in calling out Amber Rhea as an “a–hole” you might want to re-read your comments here…and then look in the mirror. Remember what happens to those who assume things without asking.
Anthony
I think it sounds like everyone has an individual definition of what “working class” constitutes. For example, my mother grew up on a farm (grandparents farmed their whole adult lives) and my dad grew up the son of a teacher who later began working for agricultural companies. My parents were both public school teachers before my dad left to work in sales and my mom and he eventually opened a small floorcovering business. Some people might define that as working class, or at least partially working class, but I don’t. Why? (Well, apart from the fact that my dad drove a Porsche for 2 years, which I think is an instant disqualifier?) Because in my mind working class constitutes “blue collar,” i.e., factory work or some other hard physical labor environment. Perhaps the farming of my grandparents would qualify, but not the teaching or the floorcovering business.
If you define working class solely based on income, then theoretically a lot of low-paying jobs would qualify that you would not necessarily consider traditionally working class. Public defenders instantly spring to mind–they have the cachet and education of being attorneys, so how can that be a working class profession? But similarly, if a plumber earns $150K a year and lives very comfortably, are they still “working class?”
I think it’s a tough nut to crack and there’s a lot of room for wildly divergent understandings of what the term really means.
Kristin,
I think you missed the point of the post. Amber is sharing her experience, which is all she can do. She is not generalizing about public schools, but her experience with them. As someone who has been to public schools in four states and Germany (where schools were run by the Department of Defense), and (for full disclosure), a disasterous six months at a private school in Florida, I know how awful and how great public schools can be. And I also shared in Amber’s frustration, having attended the same public high school in Georgia that she did. Guess what? It wasn’t all rainbows and sunshine and unicorns! There were some deep issues based on geography, socioeconomic status, and cultural makeup.
And guess what? Working-class backgrounds differ! I KNOW that Amber’s parents were about as working-class as you could get. But, she might not be the working-class in your mind because you seem to be policing class boundaries despite your aversion to it. My parents were in the Army for 20 years. Does that make them working-class or not? i don’t know. I did not (and would not still) identify them as working class. Someone else might identify their Army parents as working class though. It’s all a matter of perspective. And the issue here is that your perspective differs from Amber’s. Not that that’s bad. It’s just different. The understanding begins when we accept that those points of views are valid. You might not agree with Amber’s definition, but you should still make the effort to see that AMBER sees that definition as valid. Calling it bullshit doesn’t really get us anywhere, does it?
This message brought to you by a non-working class, Ivy League educated bitch.
[...] was wondering how long it would take! A drive-by commenter (totally not anonymous, mind you) has swooped in to tell me that I shan’t identify my [...]
Working class: Traditionally defined as the “urban proletariat” a la Marx. At a minimum, means something about being culturally/socially identified with the “working classes.” Post-Marx, expanded to include non-urban workers (farmers, etc.). Sometimes over-simplified as people working in professions which are traditionally unionized (but this is an overly narrow definition). Since the US is so market-centric, the “working class” is often understood in popular parlance as having to do merely with income (That usage isn’t accurate.).
Anthony: You don’t know what I do for a living or how much I make, so, no, actually, you really can’t call me an elitist.
I never said *anything* about how much Amber makes (I don’t know and don’t care…?). Thing is… Sure, there are token students who get scholarships ever now and then, but school choice is almost entirely associated with the middle/upper class. The rest of us didn’t have any choice (and turned out, surprisingly…non-criminal after all.).
Also, never said I couldn’t be an asshole too. I simply object to my education being essentially linked to the frakking “criminalization” of the American working class.
That’s why I think it’s going completely down the wrong path to try to define working class in terms of money alone or type of job alone. It is so much more than that. It’s all the stuff in between. It’s all the stuff I still can’t really put into words.
Niki, you are wise, as always.
“And guess what? Working-class backgrounds differ! I KNOW that Amber’s parents were about as working-class as you could get.”
Yes, of course, I agree. But, I will say, identifying as “working class” usually implies a kind of class solidarity that I don’t see here. Amber has dismissed criticisms of classism over and over throughout these blogwars as mere “jealousy,” when the criticisms actually constitute a substantive claim. There *has* been classism at stake. And it doesn’t have anything to do with Amber and how much she does or doesn’t make (I really could not care less. That’s tangential and obfuscates the matter… This whole blow up was not about Amber PERSONALLY, and part of what infuriates me is that she made it this way.)
Not to mention… People who *grew up working class* are capable of saying very classist things. Class can be a bit of an amorphous thing, really. Marx was wrong that you have a dichotomy with the proletariat on one side and the bourgeoisie on the other. I don’t think it’s always easy to define, but I *do* recognize class solidarity when I see it (and when I don’t). Hint: It’s not about Amber’s income, y’all.
I’m not sure what personal beef you’ve got going here, Kristin, but it looks to me like there’s a hell of a lot of projection going on.
Criminalization of the American working class? Where the FUCK did you get that out of my post? You’ve clearly got something in mind and are looking for evidence of it. Good god.
Well, once again, apparently you’ve been reading selectively. I have said MANY TIMES that SOME of the criticisms ARE substantive. I’ve taken great pains to point that out far more often than I felt was necessary, anticipating just such a comment/accusation as yours. And yes, I’ve said SOME of the criticisms are people using the language of anti-oppression activism to prop up their own personal issues. Key words here? SOME. I’m hoping you know as well as I do that there are LOTS of different “arguments” in the blogosphere, it being a big place and all, and they are not all the same.
Indeed. I am part of a union for my profession for the state of Connecticut. But I’m definitely not working class.
And of course people who are working-class can say classist things. Just a people who are women can say sexist things. I still don’t get your point… if you even have one.
To start any sort of dialogue about class or race or ethnicity or culture requires that people begin with their own stories and begin to understand where they come from. This is what Amber is trying to do for herself with her blog post. She’s just letting us along for the ride, which takes a lot of guts in my opinion. Especially when we have people who would invalidate her experience.
Alrighty. Question-answering time:
“Criminalization of the American working class? Where the FUCK did you get that out of my post? You’ve clearly got something in mind and are looking for evidence of it. Good god.”
You say that public schools breed “antisocial” behavior. “Antisocial” behavior is connected in the DSM IV with criminality. It’s one of the diagnostic criteria. “Antisocial” is the DSM’s word for “sociopath.” It really isn’t a very far stretch. So, yeah, that’s offensive. Didn’t even have to “look” for it.
“I’m not sure what personal beef you’ve got going here, Kristin, but it looks to me like there’s a hell of a lot of projection going on.”
None, actually. I never wanted to go to private school. I know, I know, the next retort is going to be: “You’re jealous!” Heh… No. But I do think class plays into all of this, and failure to recognize how privilege plays into one’s school assignment is another example of classism.
Not to mention… Where do you get *off* calling WOC “drama queens”? I think that was the first thing that sent me over the edge. Not your place to do that.
“And of course people who are working-class can say classist things. Just a people who are women can say sexist things. I still don’t get your point… if you even have one.”
Eh… Simply: Amber’s working class creds (or lack thereof) are not the point here. She is still being classist. She is also refusing solidarity with working class people (hence my drawing of boundaries as “not working class”). I don’t think it’s about income, but I do think it has much to do with political allegiances.
“To start any sort of dialogue about class or race or ethnicity or culture requires that people begin with their own stories and begin to understand where they come from.”
Well, I’m white, and I must say. It can be very hard to distinguish white women who are engaging in useful (dialogic) self-reflection from white women who are simply ignoring the criticisms of WOC and working class women in order to engage in navel gazing.
All this talk about “guilt” on this blog…? No one wants anyone to feel guilty about anything. But it might be nice to stop claiming to be an ally when you aren’t one (But Kynn makes this point better than I on her blog.).
We’ve been over this. I said THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS I ATTENDED breed antisocial behavior. I’m sorry I didn’t spell that out every time I referenced “public school” in this post, but you know, in a post that’s very obviously about my experiences, I would think it would be bloody obvious.
Well, I am not a psychologist. I do not research the possible DSM-IV definitions of words for use on my blog. I could have said “assholish” but I use that one a lot; I wanted a synonym.
Ummm… no. Why would I think you’re jealous? Jealous of what? That doesn’t make sense.
My post was about my experience w/ private school (one private school) vs. public school (two public schools). Have I said my experience is universal or that any larger wisdom should be extrapolated from it? No. I am speaking only for myself and describing things I experienced. I don’t know how much plainer I can make this.
Okay, what? I would love it if you would spell out to me what you think I’m not getting based on privilege. “School assignment?” Look, I could tell you my whole life story but I don’t have the time to write it out, and a lot of people who read here already know the backstory, and since I write my blog for ME and not THEM, it’s not really necessary anyway. So what the hell are you on about?
Again (and just to spell it out again, this was the part of the post that was SEPARATE from the part about MY LIFE), talking about some WOC bloggers. Not, “WOC.” They are not a monolith, after all. WOC bloggers are distinct individuals, and yeah, I think some of ‘em are drama queens – not because they are WOC. That part is incidental.
Well, as a woman of color, I should obviously be taking offense to Amber’s thoughts about her life. Dammit, M@ber! You have twisted my mind again! You will never listen to my experience because you hate your own working-class roots and everyone with them! And because you are (GASP!) not conservative!
Dammit! And now I’ve been childish! AGH!
Well, (as Google and Urban Dictionary told me): time to make the doughnuts.
Niki: Eh, no, but I’m sure you wouldn’t suggest that your own perceptions do or should extend to *all* WOC?
Criticisms of navel-gazing on a blog have always struck me as particularly rich. It’s a blog; of COURSE there’s navel-gazing! That’s the point!
What? Ok, this makes no sense. Political allegiances? Refusing solidarity? What the hell?
And again I don’t grasp how I’m being classist by writing about my own experiences – mine and mine alone.
Also, I’m sorry Amber, but it’s a bit rich to see that you’re here claiming to understand the experiences and motivations of all WOC (or, excuse me, just the “drama queen” ones who you don’t want to listen to) while… Simultaneously claiming that no one could possibly understand what you’ve written here without understanding your entire life backstory. Honestly? I *really* do not need anymore details at this point.
“School assignment”–There, I was referring to simply “the schools that we are–and are not–assigned to attend.” I don’t know the private school lingo? “Chosen school?” When students were shifted around to various public schools as I grew up, we called it “school assignment.” So, how does class matter? Well, as we know, schools in the US are largely funded by local city and county districts, and that means that schools in poor areas tend to be less quality schools than schools in wealthy areas. On top of that, a choice between a private or a public school brings another element of privilege (usually class privilege, but if not, then SOME kind of privilege) into the discussion. I thought that was a pretty straightforward and uncontroversial claim?
And, finally, no, it really was not at all clear from your post that you weren’t generalizing about public schools.
I don’t research the DSM either, but some words are just considered to be common everyday speech.
“Criticisms of navel-gazing on a blog have always struck me as particularly rich. It’s a blog; of COURSE there’s navel-gazing! That’s the point!”
Well, all right, I’ll give you that. That’s true.
“What? Ok, this makes no sense. Political allegiances? Refusing solidarity? What the hell?”
I’ve been following the recent blow-up, and I’ve seen you float the “you’re just jealous” meme against working class women and WOC as a way of dismissing their criticisms (Courtney’s post is the one that immediately comes to mind.).
Not claiming to understand anyone’s experiences and motivations. Simply saying what I perceive of actual actions. No one knows their experiences and motivations but the person themself.
So, the “choice” in my case to change schools was predicated on many factors, not just a whim, and sacrifices had to be made. Nowehere am I pretending that I was like the poorest of the poor. Of course the fact that those sacrifices could be made at all is a form of privilege. But I didn’t think that needed spelling out.
It was clear to longtime readers, but again, I’m not really concerned with that. With posts like this, I don’t go for clarity. With posts that I write more for an audience than for myself – like when I want to explain an issue or bring attention to it – I try for clarity. I have all different kinds of posts on my blog.
Um. By you I guess. Not sure what you’re getting at here.
I’ve leveled that criticism at SOME critics. Yep, sure thing, I thought some of the reaction to Courtney’s post was bullshit. She was writing about a day in her life. Does she have to do the ashes and sackcloth routine for it to be valid? Fuck that. Women need to be able to write about our lives, straight up, without all this bullshit heaped on us, assumed to be speaking for others.
Also, it bothers me that you seem to be suggesting “political solidarity” means being in 100% lockstep agreement with everything someone says, just because they identify as part of a certain group.
“Also, it bothers me that you seem to be suggesting “political solidarity” means being in 100% lockstep agreement with everything someone says, just because they identify as part of a certain group.”
I didn’t say that. And I don’t think that. I do think solidarity involves a willingness to hear what working class people are saying about certain things, even when they disagree with you. And a sensitivity as to why certain things *sound* classist even if they are not intended in that way.
Yep. Totally agree. Nothing in my post to say otherwise.
Oh, I assume all women of color think like I do. You know, since all of them grew up exactly like I did. We have the same perceptions on everything! Abortion. Taxes. The Croatian-Slovenian border dispute. Dogs versus cats as the better pet (we don’t consider fish, iguanas, or birds, because we all find them repugnant creatures). It’s really refreshing to have people see the world the same exact way I do. I never have to explain myself to another woman of color.
Just like all white women think the same way (just like you and Amber think the same way!).
“Oh, I assume all women of color think like I do. You know, since all of them grew up exactly like I did. We have the same perceptions on everything! Abortion. Taxes. The Croatian-Slovenian border dispute. Dogs versus cats as the better pet (we don’t consider fish, iguanas, or birds, because we all find them repugnant creatures). It’s really refreshing to have people see the world the same exact way I do. I never have to explain myself to another woman of color.”
EXACTLY my point. Thank you.
“Yep. Totally agree. Nothing in my post to say otherwise.”
Well, maybe not in this specific post (I’d have to read it over, and… No.), but remember that I’m reading you in the context of the “You’re Just Jealous” meme. And I think the idea that it’s okay to tell WOC and working class women that their criticism has no basis because they’re “jealous” is highly problematic. And I’m not entirely sure that you do agree with me there.
Then we’ll just have to agree to disagree, bc I’m not going to spend all night trying to convince you.
Sara,
In retrospect, I should have been a plumber. More money and easier problems.
[...] 5,767 hits About Calling Women of Color “Drama Queens” February 23, 2009, 9:30 pm Filed under: asshattery, blog strife, racism I’m not going to sugar-coat this post – what I say is not going to be nice and pretty, but it’s going to be honest and direct. This is bullshit. [...]
Jen – there’s still time!
Speaking of being working class, I’ve been working and just got here. Damn, I miss everything!
PS: I thought everyone in Augusta was working class! :P (Well, except for the golfers!)
A lot of ‘em are! Especially a lot of the people I went to middle school with, which is what made the K-Mart jokes so weird. There is also a lot of “old money” in Augusta though… the golfers and otherwise.
One thing’s for sure, NASCAR paraphernalia is not a source or shame in Augusta – quite the opposite!
Um.
Did valeko get a new name?
Where to begin? I think it’s really hard to comment on anyone’s location within an economic class. I don’t think there is enough information here to do it. I have to believe that if someone is inspired to declaim on it, there’s probably an ulterior motive and I’d encourage you not to invest a lot of emotional energy with that.
Next, I don’t subscribe to calling the particular folks you mention drama queens. But I don’t know that the fact that you did so is racist, and I don’t think it’s possible for any drive-by to claim knowledge on that. As you point out, other WOC who aren’t in this group have also made similar claims. So there is something about the output of these folks that puts some people off (and note here, some in this group I respect and I’m not voicing a personal opinion), and pointing out a negative about people isn’t racist. Jumping to this accusation because you used the WOC label to avoid naming individual names is of dubious merit.
And basically, suggesting that the ONLY reason you could have a negative opinion about certain WOC is because of race is really concerning, as it suggests that any opinion of them would be race-related. Presumably even a good opinion. I respect these bloggers and think they are about more than their race. To grant someone full personhood is to grant that they are someone you can both agree and disagree with. While I do not call these bloggers drama queens, there are some white feminist bloggers I do call drama queens — for reasons other than their race. One can disagree with your opinion without making the claim it’s race-related.
I think unfortunately that this is another situation, in a long list, where white feminist (?) bloggers leverage WOC to create or maintain spats with other white feminist bloggers. And as such, I think that’s highly problematic.
^ Word to that.
I don’t care to get into this shit fit about class background and class privilege. I think it’s total bullshit. Define what you mean by class and then start in on Amber’s.
[...] of my experience with class consciousness Amber has written several posts related to class consciousness recently, and it’s gotten me thinking about some of my [...]
Working class consciousness is an amazing thing that doesn’t get taught well in our schools or in our culture.
Here in Minneapolis several groups are putting together programs to honor the 75th anniversary of the 1934 Minneapolis Truckers Strike. Back then, rich people had joined together in a group called the Citizens Alliance that beat back any attempt by working class people to fight for their rights, get better working conditions and meet the needs of their families. People who had been down for years finally came together in the summer of 1934: workers, farmers and the unemployed put aside their differences and worked together to beat down the power of a tiny elite of the super-wealthy and changed the world for the better.
I like that idea a lot. People who have been put down recognize their common interests and work together to make positive change. I think the world will be a better place when we understand that we have common problems, common interests and that we can transform the world when we work together.
The working class in this country and around the world has a tradition of expressing solidarity with other people in similar conditions. We’ve made a choice to support those who work against those who do not. We’ve made a commitment to aid in the struggle of those who are oppressed.
Eugene Debs, the great labor leader of the 20th Century wrote about this when he said: “While there is a lower class I am in it; while there is a criminal element I am of it; while there is a soul in prison, I am not free.”
:-) My mom taught (public, since apparently that matters) school in Columbia County and had, in the same classroom, students who lived in houses with no electricity (which might be more aptly referred to as “shacks”) and twins who got twin Mercedes for their 16th birthdays. There’s a lot of old, and new, money in Augusta. It just tends to concentrate on certain sectors of society (as it does in almost all places in this country).
And yes, NASCAR cuts across all classes in Augusta. ;-)
………
It’s rare that I do this, but I’m throwing my conflict resolution and non-judgmental p-preference hats out the door to effectively call BULLSHIT directly on Kristin.
I will not engage with her. She is clearly not interested in dialogue. Other people have beautifully provided the justification for these conclusions.
I’m just pointing my finger at her and summing up all her commentary as BULLSHIT.
That’s all.
:-)
“I will not engage with her. She is clearly not interested in dialogue. Other people have beautifully provided the justification for these conclusions.”
I love it when people do this. “I WILL NOT ENGAGE WITH HER, but IF I WERE GOING TO ENGAGE WITH HER, I’d call her BULLSHIT, I would. But I am going to PUNISH HER by not engaging.” Pfft. Call me amused.
Anyway, Raven said it all better than I did. Listen to her. She’s also nicer than me.
Nope, I’m not punishing. I’m observing. And you continue to prove my, and others, point.
I did not call you bullshit. I called your commentary bullshit. Learn the difference between judging a person and judging their actions. It would serve you well if you attempt to engage in what you seem to perceive as dialogue.
I call bullshit on your comments because you proved and continue to prove that you read only what you wish to read, not what is actually written. You demonstrate no interest in understanding others perspectives, just in judging them.
That’s bullshit.
And that’s my last word for you.
Trackback-
Ash Wednesday ruminations on feminism, religion, etc.